A Question for Calvinists and Reformed Devotees

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The Reformed/Calvinist adherents claim that everything done is God’s will, whether it be good or evil. There is no sense in which they do not dispute this as many Calvinist/Reformed writers and theologians have confirmed. Thus what we are given is a near – to fatalistic view of our existence, in which all actions are willed of God.

If that is so, and the majority of Calvinists say it is, then they need to answer this passage:

Cut off thine hair, O Jerusalem, and cast it away, and take up a lamentation on high places; for the LORD hath rejected and forsaken the generation of his wrath.
For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.
And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart. (Jeremiah 7:29-31)

Notice what the LORD states here:

And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart. (Jeremiah 7:31)

The LORD is VERY express here that the concept and idea of burning children in the fire “NEITHER came it into my heart.”

If then, God decrees (wills) everything, then how can this statement be in Scripture?

How can it be that God willed the Jews in Jerusalem to sacrifice their children in the fire, but it was not in His heart, and didn’t enter into His heart?

Since the will stems from the heart, how can God will something, yet the thing willed not be in the heart of God?

The adherents of Calvinist/Reformed doctrine cannot have it both ways.

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6 Responses to “A Question for Calvinists and Reformed Devotees”

Here are some scriptures for you to study: Proverbs 20:24 “Man’s goings ( steps) are of the Lord; how can a man then understand his own way.” Jeremiah 10:23 ” O’Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself; it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.” Lamentations 3:37-38 ; Daniel 4:35. Ephesians 1:11″ In whom also we obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of him who WORKETH ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS WILL.”
Notes:
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  • Aaron says:

    Because God says so in his word. Ephesians 1:11 ” In whom also we obtained an inheritance, being predestined according TO THE PURPOSE OF HIM WHO WORKETH ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS WILL.” Notice God works ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS WILL. Not just the things Paul W Davis says, ALL THINGS.  Nothing happens in this universe without it filtering through God’s hands first, nothing happens without God ordaining it. God is not responsible for peoples choices, they are. God is addressing the issue of human moral behavior instead of expressing ignorance since that is what God is talking about.  In other words, their sin did not enter the intention of God’s heart in His plans for Judah. Cross references for Jeremiah 7:31: Lev18:21; Deut 17:3; 2 Kings 17:17; 2 Kings 23:10; Psalm 106:38; Jer 19;5; Jer 32:35.

    • Paul says:

      Boy, you are confused!

      You said:

      Nothing happens in this universe without it filtering through God’s hands first, nothing happens without God ordaining it.

      But He could not have ordained it because He plainly stated of this action and behavior:

      “which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.”

      If it never came into His heart, and he commanded they not do it, how could he have ordained it?

      You yourself admit:

      “In other words, their sin did not enter the intention of God’s heart in His plans for Judah.”

      If it is not His intention, and not in His plans, then it is not His will. If it is not His will, how could He ordain it?

      Is the Calvinist god conflicted? Sounds like it to me!

      Maybe you are just to ignorant to properly explain it?

      Maybe it is beyond explaining?

      What about the very high probability your doctrine is DEAD WRONG?

  • Lee Shelton says:

    OK, so God never commanded them to burn their children, and he never considered commanding them to burn their children. Where’s the dilemma here? Surely you aren’t suggesting God was caught off-guard, or that it’s possible for us to override his will.

  • Stan says:

    This is actually a terrifying concept you’re offering here. So … as you read it, the passage in Jeremiah 7 is saying that human beings thought up things that God never thought of? Human beings exceeded God’s knowledge? I would have to assume that you necessarily deny that God is omniscient then as well, right? As for me, assuming that the rest of the Bible is accurate, I read Jer. 7 as God saying, “The sins that they have committed weren’t My idea.” That doesn’t suggest “I never had an inkling that they would do it”, but “It didn’t come from Me. I never even considered the possibility that they should do that.” So the question for me isn’t “How would Calvinists answer this?” but “How can YOU believe that God is omniscient or even superior to humans when YOU hold that humans did things God never thought of”? How can God work all things together for good if humans are going to surprise Him? In what possible sense is He sovereign if His creation does things He never would think of, let alone allow? How can Paul possibly be correct when He says that God “works ALL THINGS after the counsel of His will” when He doesn’t even know what Man will do?

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    1. Aaron Says:

      John Piper gives good insight into the way God brings about preferences (motives) to cause people to act: “always keep in mind that everything God does toward men–His commanding, His calling, His warning, His promising, His weeping over Jerusalem,–everything is His means of creating situations which function as motives to illicite the acts of will which He has ordained to come to pass. In this way He ultimately determines all acts of volition (though not all in the same way) and yet holds man accountable only for those acts which they want most to do.”[14]
      To sum up, moral accountability does not depend upon whether our choices are determined, it depends upon how they are determined. As long as our choices are caused by our desires and reasonable motives, they are responsible acts. And since God controls our choices by controlling our preferences, His sovereignty does not violate our moral agency. Further, while God is the ultimate cause of all things, He is behind good and evil in different ways. God regulates circumstances and the degree of His grace to bring about the preferences which will illicit the choices that He has ordained. The fallacy of Arminianism is in thinking that one cannot be held responsible for something unless it is an entirely free and undetermined act. Here are some scriptures for you to study: Proverbs 20:24 “Man’s goings ( steps) are of the Lord; how can a man then understand his own way.” Jeremiah 10:23 ” O’Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself; it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.” Lamentations 3:37-38 ; Daniel 4:35. Ephesians 1:11″ In whom also we obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of him who WORKETH ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS WILL.”
      Notes:
      <!– /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:”Cambria Math”; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:roman; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-1610611985 1107304683 0 0 159 0;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-1610611985 1073750139 0 0 159 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-unhide:no; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:””; margin-top:0in; margin-right:0in; margin-bottom:10.0pt; margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:26.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt; font-family:”Calibri”,”sans-serif”; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family:”Times New Roman”; font-weight:bold; mso-bidi-font-weight:normal; font-style:italic; mso-bidi-font-style:normal;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; font-size:10.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} –> John Piper, “A Response to J.I. Packer on the So-Called Antinomy Between The sovereignty of God and Human Responsibility,” unpublished article, March 1976, p. 3. 2) Mp, a reformed theologian 3) Aaron Curry, scripture references to study, KJV 1873.
       

    2. Paul Says:

      Once again Mr. Curry, you refused to answer the question. Your reply has little to nothing to do with the question. Answer the question!

      If then, God decrees (wills) everything, then how can this statement be in Scripture?

      How can it be that God willed the Jews in Jerusalem to sacrifice their children in the fire, but it was not in His heart, and didn’t enter into His heart?

      Since the will stems from the heart, how can God will something, yet the thing willed not be in the heart of God?

    3. Aaron Says:

      Because God says so in his word. Ephesians 1:11 ” In whom also we obtained an inheritance, being predestined according TO THE PURPOSE OF HIM WHO WORKETH ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS WILL.” Notice God works ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS WILL. Not just the things Paul W Davis says, ALL THINGS.  Nothing happens in this universe without it filtering through God’s hands first, nothing happens without God ordaining it. God is not responsible for peoples choices, they are. God is addressing the issue of human moral behavior instead of expressing ignorance since that is what God is talking about.  In other words, their sin did not enter the intention of God’s heart in His plans for Judah. Cross references for Jeremiah 7:31: Lev18:21; Deut 17:3; 2 Kings 17:17; 2 Kings 23:10; Psalm 106:38; Jer 19;5; Jer 32:35.

    4. Paul Says:

      Boy, you are confused!

      You said:

      Nothing happens in this universe without it filtering through God’s hands first, nothing happens without God ordaining it.

      But He could not have ordained it because He plainly stated of this action and behavior:

      “which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.”

      If it never came into His heart, and he commanded they not do it, how could he have ordained it?

      You yourself admit:

      “In other words, their sin did not enter the intention of God’s heart in His plans for Judah.”

      If it is not His intention, and not in His plans, then it is not His will. If it is not His will, how could He ordain it?

      Is the Calvinist god conflicted? Sounds like it to me!

      Maybe you are just to ignorant to properly explain it?

      Maybe it is beyond explaining?

      What about the very high probability your doctrine is DEAD WRONG?

    5. Lee Shelton Says:

      OK, so God never commanded them to burn their children, and he never considered commanding them to burn their children. Where’s the dilemma here? Surely you aren’t suggesting God was caught off-guard, or that it’s possible for us to override his will.

    6. Stan Says:

      This is actually a terrifying concept you’re offering here. So … as you read it, the passage in Jeremiah 7 is saying that human beings thought up things that God never thought of? Human beings exceeded God’s knowledge? I would have to assume that you necessarily deny that God is omniscient then as well, right? As for me, assuming that the rest of the Bible is accurate, I read Jer. 7 as God saying, “The sins that they have committed weren’t My idea.” That doesn’t suggest “I never had an inkling that they would do it”, but “It didn’t come from Me. I never even considered the possibility that they should do that.” So the question for me isn’t “How would Calvinists answer this?” but “How can YOU believe that God is omniscient or even superior to humans when YOU hold that humans did things God never thought of”? How can God work all things together for good if humans are going to surprise Him? In what possible sense is He sovereign if His creation does things He never would think of, let alone allow? How can Paul possibly be correct when He says that God “works ALL THINGS after the counsel of His will” when He doesn’t even know what Man will do?

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